18 replies to this topic

[soulEngine]

Hey All,

So, I'm not totally new to car audio, but I have been out of the "game" for 6-7 years. Before I was just rocking Kickers and stuff...but as I've matured, I've come to realize I fall into the SQ category. Don't get me wrong, I love loud music...but it needs to be as clear and crisp as possible.

With that intro, here is where I'm at. I've been trying to learn more and do a ton of research, but am having a hard time finding the info I need.

I recently purchased a 2008 Honda Accord EX-L V6 with a 7 speaker system (no nav) and want to upgrade it.

First off: are there any really good articles that could help me understand audio electronics, quality, and such more? Such as how to use crossovers. What matters in bass. What matters in mids. What makes the major differences. What's the difference between Burr Brown and regular DACs...

So some articles on that would be awesome. Second...I need help building. After 4 or 5 days of research, I'm leaning toward a complete Morel system"

Tempo 6 mid-ranges and tweeters.
Ultimo 12" sub.

I really want a touchscreen Head Unit (for various reasons), but apparently none of them have good DACs. Is it possible to get an external quality DAC? How about carputers? Does the DAC make that much of a difference?

My budget is about 2000 USD, but if I can get it a bit lower, that'd be best.

SQ is the most important, followed very closely by loudness. I want aural bliss inside my car, without breaking it apart though.

Thanks guys! Any and all help is very much appreciated!

-soul

[jamiebosco]

If sound quality is your main concern I personally wouldn't spend over a third of your total budget on an Ultimo 12,and I'd spend more on your front speakers.
I'd be looking for a JBL W12GTi mkII (if their still available) http://www.sonicelec...12GTi-MkII.html
For fronts I'd be looking at these http://www.madisound...-car-audio-kit/

[Spink!]

For a $2000 budget I would be wanting to run a basic active system.. But that would limit the choice of headunits with capable active cross overs.
If you're chasing SQ I'd settle for a headunit which isn't touchscreen and spend more money on something that will be able to process your system properly.

[syd-monster]

Here is plenty of reading!! >> http://www.the12volt.com/
Also look at the tutorials on this forum >> http://www.mobileele...cle-discussion/

The main thing I suggest you keep in mind is

1. Installation is critical, doesn't matter how good the equipment is, if you don't spend the time/effort & some of your budget to get that right, then you're wasting your time. The better the equipment is installed, and with particular focus to the speakers, placement and understand how to get the most from them, the better your system will sound.

2. Understand your music and build a system around what you want. EG would you buy a truck if you wanted to go F1 racing? Would you get small sports car if you wanted to tow a boat around? Silly right? but like wise would you get a million woofers of you only want clean/clear bass? Buy quality pieces of brands you trust that suit what you're trying to achieve in the overall sound.

3. One good quality amp or headunit, is a much better investment than a whole heap of lower quality gear for the same price. Generally speaking, quality gear lasts for years and is easier to expand and build on.

4. Go a listen to equipment. Gear on a forum makes no sound at all ... see if you can find a car similar to yours and see if you can listen to what sort of sound they get... Comps or social meets are really good for this.

[Timmeh]

Also look at the links that are stickied at the top of the sq forum...

[muzzy66]

If you don't want to go TOO deep, then lets start at the basic level - in most cases that means a source unit, a set of passive splits in the front, and a sub.

In this case the first things I'd be looking at is your own vehicle:
1. Where will the mids go (how flexible are you on angles?)
2. Where will the tweeters go (how flexible are you on angles?)
3. How much boot space do you have for the sub, and how big an enclosure can you fit while still being satisfied with practicality
4. Do you have room for multiple amps, or would you rather keep it the install simpler and run a single amp?
5. Does you budget include installation and accessories (cabling, sound deadening, fusing, etc) - if so are you installing it yourself or getting a pro install?

If you want to get deep into the advanced stuff you can check out my other thread (linked further down in this one), but if you can answer those six questions, it's a great starting point

Edited by muzzy66, 19 August 2012 - 06:45 PM.

[Timmeh]

Geez muzzy! Don't scare the guy off!! He doesn't need everything about sq all in one post LMAO!!

[muzzy66]

In order to avoid drowsiness, I have created a seperate thread with more detailed information in case you would like to read deeper into the advanced / technical aspects of SQ designs.

Edited by muzzy66, 19 August 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[muzzy66]

Edit:
I have moved this response to a seperate thread (as above) to avoid clogging this one up unecessarilly. Mods please delete this post

Edited by muzzy66, 19 August 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[Timmeh]

Much better idea! Awesome info, but I agree with it having its own read rather than be a response to a single person

[soulEngine]

Hey, thanks for the feedback.

Here are my answers to muzzy's questions:

1. I'm trying to go for a fairly stealth install, so just replacing the speakers in their current location.
The front mids are on the inside bottom of the door (facing straight in) - I could probably tweak that angle a little. The rear mids are behind the rear seat, facing straight up. I could teak those angles fairly easily as long as its not trying to put them straight forward.
2. The tweaters are in the front corner of the front doors, at the base of the side windows. They currently face directionally at the drivers and passenger seats. (not too much room to change the angles on these)
3. We want to save as much boot space as possible (for the fiance mostly ), that's why I'm thinking just 1 sub in an enclosure. The Morel seemed to like about a 1cu. foot sealed box, so that shouldn't be too bad. I'm trying to figure out how to best position it though. Either having it facing the rear, forward, or to the side (the side would make it easiest).
4. Multiple amps won't be difficult to install. I was already thinking of at least 2: 1 for the mids and 1 for the sub. I'm planning on building a mounted shelf right below the rear speakers in the trunk to house the amps, and whatever other things I might want there (eqs, processors, etc).
5. Yeah, the budget includes everything. But I will be doing the install myself. I've done quite a few in the past, so I'm comfortable with the wiring and such. Just trying to do my own now and customize it to my sound taste and personal look.

Thanks for the help guys! I'll read that other thread too.

[muzzy66]

Oops, I did forget to ask two more questions!

6. Are you planning to run active or passive?
7. Are the rears necessary, or not too important?

[soulEngine]

Hmmm... I'm not sure what the difference between active and passive is. So I don't know on that. What's the difference?

As for the rears, I'd like to have them, but if I could get a lot better sound by holding off on them, that might be ok. My only concern with that is is the rear passengers will hear the quality of music as well from the front.

Also, not sure if I mentioned it, but, one of the reasons I chose the Morel Ultimo is because I was clear bass, but I also want it loud and strong. I'm a basshead... But, I might be able to go with the SC and save a little money that way.

Thanks again! You guys are very helpful.

[Timmeh]

The difference between passive and active refers to where the crossovers sit in your system. Put simply, in an active system, the headunit, processor or amp set the crossover points. In a passive system, they are connected to the amp via speaker cable, and then speakers are connected to the crossovers. There are advantages and disadvantages of both - the primary advantage of of active is flexibility, because you can change the crossover points/slopes when you change speakers, or to get the best sound. The primary advantage of passive is cost - they tend to be cheaper than active systems, but your crossover points and slopes are set once installed - the only way to change them is to change the components in the crossovers.

[Aussierox]

The only real difference between the ultimo and sc is the power handling due to the way the sub is made. The sc apparently needs at least 500w rms but will go plenty loud from what I've been told.

[muzzy66]

Looking at your responses above, it's important to note that by going for an Ultimo you are spending close to 50% of your total system budget on one subwoofer. The Ultimo is a nice sub no doubt, but there are others out there for less money that will give you competetive sound quality and output potential for a lot less money.

The first problem with the Ultimo is that it has very poor sensitivity relatively speaking. The average sensitivity for a 12" is probably around 86dB 1w/1m, with some of the higher sensitivity woofers out there (IDMAX, Ultimo SC, Peerless XXLS, etc) being up around 87.5dB. The sensitivity for the Ultimo is only about 84.5dB 1w/1m - that's about 3dB less then the more sensitive 12's out there, and 3dB of output translates to it needing twice the power just to reach the same output level. So to start with, the Ultimo is quite power hungry.

Second problem with the Ultimo is that it's rated '1,000w' power handling tends to lead a lot of people of people to believe it is a good "SQL" woofer, but make no mistake...this is a pure SQ woofer. No matter how much thermal power handling that voice coil is rated to take, the woofer's mechanical powerhandling will always be limited by its xmax (12.5mm) and cone area (471cm^2). These translate into a total displacement that's on par with subs like the Peerless XXLS, Focal 33XK, Rainbow Vanadium and other SQ subs that most would never even dream of using in an SQL application.

Looking at all of the above you might think I'm bagging out the Ultimo as a poor sub, but I'm not at all. It's an excellent SQ sub, and is up there with in the top 3 or 4 of all the subs I've heard in terms of accuracy and definition.

I modelled these subs at the time for an in car response of -3dB @ 20hz, because I decided that's the low end extension I wanted. For the Ultimo to model out with that level of extension I needed to put it in 27L sealed, and in that enclosure the driver reach it's excursion limits off 690W - that seems like a big figure, but remember the 84.5dB sensitivity. By comparison a Peerless 830847 XXLS reached it's mechanical xmax off 310W, but has 2.5dB higher sensitivity (87dB). Take it all into consideration and you're lucky to get 0.5dB or 1dB more output from the Ultimo versus the XXLS, assuming you have an amp that can actually produce 700w RMS. If your amp only makes 600w or less then the XXLS will give you more output.

So consider all of the above, then consider that the XXLS sounds at least as good as the Ultimo and costs only about $300 - much more friendly to your budget!

Oh and no, I've not forgotten about the Ultimo SC! It's got good sensitivity (around 87dB - 88dB) but has very limited mechanical power handling due to the very limited xmax (9.5mm). For equivalent low end extension to those speakers listed above the SC needed 36L sealed, in which it ran out of xmax off 235w input power.

If you really want a sub that will have the potential to sound good and go very loud off modest power, I'd be looking at either an IDMAX 12 (which is Ultimo-like money) or an SB Acoustic SB42FHC75. The IDMAX combines genuine 1,000w power handling (mechanical as well as thermal) with 88dB 1w/1m sensitivity. The SB Acoustics offers about 300w power handling but with a whopping 90.5dB sensitivity for about $400

Also before someone says it, no, 15" subs do not have worse sound quality then smaller subs. Sound quality depends mostly on factors like smooth frequency response and low distortion, and these factors are ultimately determined by the quality of the motor and cone/surround designs. A 15" sub (due to higher cone area) actually needs to move much less then a 12" to produce the same low frequency output, and will also have higher senstivity (as a general rule) hence requiring less power - so a 15" should actually sound better then an equivalent 12".

If pure SQ is what you're after along with the ability to go loud at times, I would go with one of the Peerless XXLS variants - either a single 12 or a pair of 10's (which would still be cheaper then the single Ultimo).

If you want to be able to go very loud but still sound pretty good, I'd be going fo the IDMAX or the SB Acoustics SB42 15".


Hope this helps

If you go with the IDMAX / Ultimo that leaves you about $1200 budget for the entire rest of your system - headunit, speakers and amps. That's not a lot at all once you split it 3 or 4 ways and would limit you to about $300-$400 per component (depending on whether you get one amp or two).

If you go with the XXLS or SB42 it leaves you with about $1600 - $1700 left for the rest of your system, which means anywhere from $400 - $550 per component.

To make the most of the budget you have, I would probably stick to a passive front stage - whatever you save by going active (speaker speaker drivers) you are going to spend back on extra amplifcation. I'd also then make use of the fact that you're running passive and stick to a single decent quality amp rather then a pair of mediocre ones. Far as head unit goes I'd stick to something decent that has a HPF and LPF, unless you can find a nice second hand one in the MEA For Sale section that supports active (nice to have, as it opens you up for future upgrades).

So, I'd be dividing the budget something like:
* Source: $400
* Front Splits: $600
* Amplifier: $400
* Subwoofer: $400

This leaves you ~$200 for install accessories, sound deadening, materials, cables, and/or rear speakers (if you must). On this type of budget I'd be looking at the Focal 165V30 spilts (if they are still around) or the Crescendo's (if they are as good as the old ones). Both are exceptional component sets on a $600 budget that can compete with ~$1,000 offerings from other brands. I also wouldn't count out the second hand market, as there are often some very nice pre-oned speakers that pop up here on MEA for great deals

If you did go active I'd be dividing it up like:
* Source: $400 (second hand)
* Tweeters: $150
* Midwoofer: $150
* Subwoofer: $400
* Speaker Amp: $350
* Sub Amp: $350

Again, this leaves $200 spare for extra bits.

[jamiebosco]

^^^^what muzzy said x 2^^^^^

Also,like i said in my first post,seeing the OP is in the USA,this would open up some other options

[jamiebosco]

Idmax 12's are about a third the price of an Ultimo 12 in th states

[muzzy66]

That's a good point actually - at that price the IDMAX is quite a steal if you want fairly clean sound that can go LOUD

That also means you can also get JL Audio and ARC Audio amplifers very cheap..also opens up some doors.